Curse

mpa · Jun 30, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

The title pretty much speaks for itself. I play in European Server and Ive noticed that since we get so few favors, people tend to get very angry if a team from another country win the HoH. That wouldnt be so bad in itself, except that cursing and racist comments seem to slowly become acceptable to most ppl. No one in the district complained when some people made derogatory comments toward Koreans / Americans. It was quite remarkable to me, since many online games encourage cultural exchange and friendship between it's players.

What do you think about the Worlds at War system and it's effect on racism in guildwars ?

Anyone playing in American / Korean server and seeing the same problem ?

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

If I am not mistaken would this not be considered nationalism? I myself do not consider american as my race. I have european relatives and ancestors and dont consider my race to be european. I am sure there are citizens of Korea that are not of Korean ancsestry. While I dont condone racism I have nothing against nationalism.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

If I am not mistaken would this not be considered nationalism? I myself do not consider american as my race. I have european relatives and ancestors and dont consider my race to be european. I am sure there are citizens of Korea that are not of Korean ancsestry. While I dont condone racism I have nothing against nationalism.

I think you are right about nationalism not being racism, but promoting strife is hardly the way to go. And Europe and America aren't "nations" either - especially given that the "American" server is populated by north and south americans as well as many english speakers from Europe.

I'm fine with nationalist sentiments of pride in your country, but this system is bringing out hate, and not to sound prissy, but hate is bad. It's one thing to want to kick butt figuratively, but the system isn't encouraging a healthy competitive spirit.

EinValentine · Jun 30, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpa

Anyone playing in American / Korean server and seeing the same problem ?

I think a large chunk of the population that plays Guild Wars is a bunch of racist, misogynistic, homophobic little twerps to begin with. You can't turn around without hearing some snot-nosed waste of reproductive material calling someone a faggot, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, or jew. I think the Worlds at War simply gives the little brats a further outlet for their foul mouthed stupidity.

But really, what do you expect from a populace that seems to have drawing genitalia on the minimap as a popular pastime?

Patriarch · Jun 30, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I think you are right about nationalism not being racism, but promoting strife is hardly the way to go. And Europe and America aren't "nations" either - especially given that the "American"server is populated by north and south americans as well as many english speakers from Europe.

I'm fine with nationalist sentiments of pride in your country, but this system is bringing out hate, and not to sound prissy, but hate is bad. It's one thing to want to kick butt figuratively, but the system isn't encouraging a healthy competitive spirit.

I think you hit it right on the spot.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

We see the same thing over here. It's a spark for racism and an arbitrary task for getting into the special content areas. Trash the WaW concept. When you first came out with it, we all had our doubts... We've seen it through... It's no good.

Night · Jun 30, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Depending on what was said. Dirty Bastard Americans wouldn't phase me (it would make me want to crush whatever nationality said it though. American Pride baby) but N*gg*r or Jewish Bastard would as those can be seen as only derogatory. I agree on the nationalism. Heck doesn't just about every country in the world hate us Americans anyway? We are used to by now.

mpa · Jun 30, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

okay, just so that the thread doesnt get bogged down in semantics. By "racism" I also include "nationalism", the bad one, hitler-kind-of-nationalism that encourage hatred.

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

True I see your point Epi and I agree there are many unrepresented nationalitys lumped together in the "America" Europe" Korea" clump but this is one of the things that marketers prey upon. Nationalism is the only acceptable form of discrimination anymore. I know first hand as I have lived in Germany, U.S.A and a short stint in S Korea. Nationalism is promoted heavily in the U.S. and in Korea and even to an extent in Europe. Since it still an acceptable form of discrimination and still acceptable to have pride in ones Nation but not in ones race the marketers will prey on this until it is no longre considered acceptable for me to feel my Nation is superior to anyone elses. I wasnt disagreeing with the original posting just in the way the post was expressed. Yes nationalism breeds many negative emotions just as racism does but in this day and age nationalism is one of the last barriers between different groups of people. Barriers can be positive and negative. I know the pride I feel for being a citizen of my country because I support the beleifs and ideals of my nation is a great positive in my life but on the other hand I know that my ideals are not the only ones that exist in the world. In short beating the other nations and retaining favor has an effect on the psyche of cementing the idea that your ideals are better than all others and this may be the negative effect you all are discussing. I would agree with you but the title states this is Guild "WARS" and wars have to have different factions within factions fighting for control.

Aniewiel · Jun 30, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinValentine

I think a large chunk of the population that plays Guild Wars is a bunch of racist, misogynistic, homophobic little twerps to begin with. You can't turn around without hearing some snot-nosed waste of reproductive material calling someone a faggot, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, or jew. I think the Worlds at War simply gives the little brats a further outlet for their foul mouthed stupidity.

But really, what do you expect from a populace that seems to have drawing genitalia on the minimap as a popular pastime?

This is the larger problem IMHO. You hit the nail on the head, EinValentine. Children and highly immature adults who play ANY game, not just GW, perpetrate horrible things online. I am a 40-something schoolteacher, for Pete's Sake, and I can't believe the number of times I am told off by someone who a) shouldn't even be playing this game due to NSRB ratings; and b) could be my kid; and c) would never even THINK to say it to me in real life.

The internet has bred very poor manners and given the sickest elements of society an outlet for their racist, homophobic, Hitleresque nationalistic vitriol. The sad part is, there is little that can be done for it.

Personally, I wish that, given proper documentation and a stern warning, offenders who spew this sort of drivel would get their CD keys banned PERMANENTLY.

Dirkiess · Jun 30, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

They better stop the Olympics then.

Or the Football World Cup,

Or the Formula 1 Grand Prix,

Or anything in the world that is related to Nations going against each other.

If people are grown up enough, then most of us can get by. However, as we all know far too often, there are just a few that can spoil things for everyone.

I like nations fighting each other, but I agree with racist remarks should be frowned upon.

To be honest, even those people here that couldn't just use the words Racist Remarks, instead of having to actually spell it out, almost makes you wonder sometimes.

Aniewiel · Jun 30, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Nationalism is fine as long as it is not in the extreme as mpa suggested. Pride in one's nation is wonderful. Heck, I cry -every- time The Star Spangled Banner is played. What is NOT all right is the hateful I-hate-all-(insert nationality here) bastiches that is spread out after every win/loss.

eventhorizen · Jun 30, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpa

okay, just so that the thread doesnt get bogged down in semantics. By "racism" I also include "nationalism", the bad one, hitler-kind-of-nationalism that encourage hatred.

To be fair the 'Hitler-kind-of-nationalism' is the same kind of nationalism that genuine hardcore nationalist fanatics exhibit. I mean the kind of Nationalism you got in Scotland during particular periods of English subjugation, the kind of nationalism the English display around Football tournaments, and the kind of nationalism many other people display when genuine deep emotions regarding ones country are triggered.

Hitlers racism, and megalomania were the root of so much suffering and evil. His nationalism alone did not bring him to try to exterminate an entire race, nor mould the future of our species at a genetic level. That was not nationalism, didnt spring from natonalism, and had very little rooting in his fanatical love for his country.

You dont get multiple types of nationalism, for the word is specific, same as you couldnt honestly get multiple types of democracy.
You should never ever mix up the deeds and desires of groups of people, with the cause they believe in.

All you need do is look at the recent problems regarding Islam, and the problems caused by confusing the deeds and desires of a small group, with the cause they believed in.....

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Seriously, you could just have everyone choose a colour. Yellow, red, blue, green... lots of colours out there. Still keep the separate servers for america, Europe and Korea, but more for the linguistic element - assign the benefits based on colour.

It's pretty arbitrary.

Aloren · Jun 30, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I don't think it's the worlds at war system that has the problem, but rather the human race in general. Any nationalistic/racist attitude has the capacity to turn down the wrong path. That being said, friendly competiton has been going on in the real world for a long time. The Olympics seem to be a petty good example of this.

I personally think of myself and those around me not be nationality, but rather as a human. I hate the idea of dividing a race by invisible borders/skin color/belief systems/etc..

Scaphism · Jun 30, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

I would agree with you but the title states this is Guild "WARS" and wars have to have different factions within factions fighting for control.

Relying on the title of the game to give power to your arguments is illogical.
At best you can say the title suggests there will be wars. That doesn't say anything about condoning outright abusive and unacceptable [to our sense of norms] social behavior.
We all accept the world we are playing in is a virtual world, right? That these are not true wars?

Understanding what seperates you from another person is incredibly important for establishing a person's identity. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to trash talk any time one faction Holds or Takes the HoH.

I think the OP hit on an important topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpa

cursing and racist comments seem to slowly become acceptable to most ppl

Is this acceptable to you? It's not to me.

One final note: Others have mentioned that a lot of these "offendors" are probably adolescents who wouldn't have the chutzpah to talk this way in public. That's because we have established norms that make them uncomfortable if they do. Those same norms don't exist in Guild Wars, or other online games. If you want to see them work their way into the gaming community, we need to establish them. Tell people it's not okay to do what they're doing. How else will they learn?
Also remember these adolescents are coping with intense pressure to conform to their peers and at the same time establish who they are. It's a tough time. If you've been through it, hopefully you understand that. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but when you're so critical of the immature jerks, understand they might have the potential to grow out of their "snot-nosed, vile-spewing" stage.

mpa · Jun 30, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Doh, it actually -does- get bogged down by semantics :-(.
But back to the topic.

Dont you think it would be great if your guild could have people from all over the world ? I want to explore Tyria with guildmates from the States, to fight the Titans alongside my European guilmate and to defend my guild with the help of my Korean guildmates. It's -Guild- Wars after all, not War of the Continents :-)

Having a multinational guild, fighting for say a fictional island, a fictional religious faction, seems to be a better solution, at least for me.

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

My apologies MPA I think I started the whole semantics war. Yes I do agree with your suggestion and think it would be great! Go post it in Sardelac and I will put my vote on it.

Narcissus · Jun 30, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinValentine

I think a large chunk of the population that plays Guild Wars is a bunch of racist, misogynistic, homophobic little twerps to begin with. You can't turn around without hearing some snot-nosed waste of reproductive material calling someone a faggot, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, or jew. I think the Worlds at War simply gives the little brats a further outlet for their foul mouthed stupidity.

But really, what do you expect from a populace that seems to have drawing genitalia on the minimap as a popular pastime?

Quote:

am a 40-something schoolteacher, for Pete's Sake, and I can't believe the number of times I am told off by someone who a) shouldn't even be playing this game due to NSRB ratings; and b) could be my kid; and c) would never even THINK to say it to me in real life.

Quoted for truth.

I know that if anyonecalled me a "fa**ot", or a "Ni**er" in RL, they would spend the next hour trying to find where their teeth landed.

Rayea · Jun 30, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

as someone that has, for thier own reasons, opted outa the whole messy human race lol, i think theres no way we will ever be done with nationalyisme (sp ect, even if we make it out to the stars...it will end up being planetisme lol.

i think though, that the war of worlds system isnt that good, since it preys upon the need to dominate, granted, thats what guild wars *the wars, not the game* are about, but still...whouldnt it be better to do away with group wars like these ones and just have matches for say, the favour *personal* of the gods? after all, arent the gods supposed to be *allways* watching over their in game charges? wouldnt the various professions spells ect no longer work if the gods took their favour elsewhere?
and it would solve the 'im from <nation> damn, i cant get to the fissure/ToA cause we dont have the Favour!' <insert copious swearing and griping>

what about the equivilent of '<nation> is currently the favorites of the gods' meaning that although we *all* still have the favour of them, the gods of the game are currently liking <this lot> more then others. sure, keep the appearances of the avatars of teh gods with each group, but making us fight to get to areas is a bit OTT.

no, havin them fight for a fictional god may just set them off the way humans fight now over their belifs. better to keep that outa the game.

i dont want to see this game degenerate like my other fave did, as soon as *that game* had War of Worlds, it turned nasty. granted, a short-sighted and possibly bitter DM used a DM only ability to waste the oppositon and ensure that the side that THEY wanted to win, won the castle map. after that it turned realy nasty, since you couldnt go out of the safe maps, and if you happened to wander into the areas held by the oppositon, u got wasted by them, cause they got points for it.